Security deposit Refund:When does30 day time frame start

The lease expired on 8/31/12. The landlord asked to schedule the walk through and surrender of keys on 9/4/12. The landlord sent a letter on 10/4/12 refusing to return the deposit and also claimed a huge amount for damages . We sent our explanation and asked for bills, estimate etc. but he referred us to contact his lawyer.When is our lease supposed to have been terminated ;On 8/31 or 9/4. We were ready to do it on 8/31 or before but the landlord was not available. Are they at fault? The house was vacated by 8/31.
Also , when the renter went to the house for the walk through at the designated time, the landlord along with 2 other people was already at the premises. They had entered the house even though the renters was not present or had handed over the keys? Are they in violation? Can we cite that they acted in bad faith and did not return our deposit in 30 days after the lease expired. Do we have any chances in the small claims court? Thanks for your response

If you moved out on 8/31, doesn't matter that walk-through/key return occurred later (though you were free to decline to engage in either, and mail or drop off your keys on move-out).

"... the landlord along with 2 other people was already at the premises."

So?

"They had entered the house even though the renters was not present or had handed over the keys? "

Not sure what your point is here.  The landlord would be free to do this.

"Can we cite that they acted in bad faith and did not return our deposit in 30 days after the lease expired."

You can't successfully argue "bad faith" simply because a letter was mailed out a few days late.  It's not material, though you're free to point that out among the list of arguments if this ever gets to court.  What I'd do is argue that I didn't leave any "damages"; if the landlord offers pictures of a horribly damaged place, I'd argue (i) those weren't taken after my tenancy, or (ii) that I can only imagine a break-in occurred  (does it look like "vandalism"?) and as such would expect to see a police report about that because I know I didn't leave the place like that on 8/31.  Hopefully, you have pictures of the place as you left it, or the landlord won't offer any credible evidence that you did this damage (such as video/credible, authentic pictures of the place before you moved in.  

If you argue you left the place in X condition (whether you have pictures or not) and the landlord argues Y, the court should by default press the landlord for details that makes it seem more likely than not that the landlord is telling the truth if the court intends to award the landlord damages.

" Do we have any chances in the small claims court?"

If you're talking about suing for your deposit, no reasonable stranger could claim that you don't.

Before I sued, I'd send the landlord a letter disputing that you left the place with any damages (or disputing the cost of repairing any damage).  I'd send certified mail and show on the letter that a copy went regular mail or hand delivery or however.  You aren't obligated to send it to the lawyer, but you may as well.

Thank you for the response.Here are my clairifications:

1.The keys could not be returned on 8/31 because we did not have the landlord's address. They lived in another state.Their agent refused to deal with the walk through & handover of keys.

2. The landlord did not send the letter for refusing the security deposit by mail. He emailed it. So there is no postal delay. They are calculating the 30 days from the day the walk through was conducted ( 8/4 on their request) and not on 8/31 ( when the lease terminated and the tenants vacated ). So my original question is when does the clock for the 30 days start?

3. Why would the landlord enter the premises in the absence of the renter if the keys were not handed over?Doesnt it mean that the lease is over?

4.No, there were no pictures taken either at move in or during walk through.

If the "agent" was your only point of contact and was the person through whom you paid the rent, you still could have sent the keys to them (same as rent).  Anyway, not relevant.

"The landlord did not send the letter for refusing the security deposit by mail. He emailed it."

I wasn't pointing to a "postal delay" as such; I'm just saying a court may not find it at all meaningful that you received it on 8/4.  My point is that you're focusing on this 30 days like a laser when that's not necessarily productive. 

"They are calculating the 30 days from the day the walk through was conducted ( 8/4 on their request) and not on 8/31 ( when the lease terminated and the tenants vacated )."

Even though I believe you're referring to the state law that requires the landlord to send out X explanation for withholding a deposit within 30 days, I'm not sure what your point is here.  Anyway, the clock on the 30 days starts running after you leave.

"So my original question is when does the clock for the 30 days start?"

You've never actually made it clear what you're referring to here but, again, I believe you're vaguely referring to a state law requirement.  If someone doesn't answer a question, they ... don't answer a question.  There's no need to repeat it.  :)  At any rate, the timeline starts ticking when you move out, and you all are free to quibble over the relatively immaterial succeeding days.  Who knows whether court will care.

"Why would the landlord enter the premises in the absence of the renter if the keys were not handed over?"

This question doesn't make any sense.  Re-read it.  They know you moved out, right?  :)  They're free to visit/inspect the place even if you hadn't moved out, as a practical matter. 

"Doesnt it mean that the lease is over?"

We keep circling back around to a relatively non-material issue, when you ought to be focusing on the topic of damages.  That leads me to believe that you left these damages and you're thinking you can pin hopes of getting your deposit back and fending off any excess damage charges by lasering in on the fact that you didn't receive notice of the withheld deposit and charges until 10/4. 

"No, there were no pictures taken either at move in or during walk through."

Don't forget to do that in future.  Still, the landlord will need to demonstrate to the court's satisfaction (whether you are suing for return of your deposit and/or they're suing you for excess) that it's more likely than not that you left the damages and this is what it cost to fix them (arguable on all counts).

Retired LL's suggestions:  I suspect this one may be a close call ---and your LL might have cut the corners too close--its going to take a TX pro at L-T matters to comment. Local to me if LL cuts it close the tenant gets every benefit of every doubt but I'm not in TX.

1. The law is worded to count 30 days from date of surrender --and often that is symbolically intrepreted to mean hand over of keys --but if you vacated earlier and the LL's agent refused to accept surrender --I'd not cut LL slack on that one, I'd call it last day of lease--but your apparent agreement of delayed walk thru invites debate as to surrender date--I still lean to 8/31.

2. TX law seems to say if LL is late and you have provided current new address (did you?) that LL is presumed to have acted in bad faith. Late is late.

3.TX law says LL must supply a written response in 30 days --me, I would NOT consider an email response as a written response until and unless somebody can address TX  law on point.

My view is given if TWO factors are against LL that Judge will see it as a late response --and late = too late.

I don't see who entered first as a big issue.

I could not hand over the keys since the property manager was not willing to accept them or want to communicate at all in this matter. She made it very clear that she was not part of the proceedings .

I am disputing the damages because I did not leave any damage. Their claims are inflated and exhorbitant.I am definitely going to attempt to prove that there were no damages beyond normal wear and tear as well as I am ready to pay any reasonable cost. Ex, there was a small stain on one of the steps of the stair case. They want to rip and replace the carpet on the entire stair case and are demanding payment.

ex2. Their 20 year old AC unit died while a service guy was there for inspection. They want me to pay for a new unit because the air filters were clogged.

Their demands runs over $ 10,000.

Yes, I am interested in also using the 30 day time period clause. Why not?There is a clause in the law and if it helps my case then why not. They seem to be using it for their calculations so I am justified in using it if it benfits  my case.

I vacated the premises on the date the lease ran out.I notified the landlord of the fact.  I was available and willing to surrender the keys on that date.

Yes, I gave them the forwarding address, phone number and email addresss. They have only been communicating via email. 

Sevina:

The keys could not be returned on 8/31 because we did not have the landlord's address.

You could have looked up the LL's address on the county property records website at any time during your tenancy.

Sevina:

Their agent refused to deal with the walk through & handover of keys.

Presumably you had the agent's address and could have gone and dropped the keys off with witnesses after having photographed the house before leaving.

Sevina:

The landlord did not send the letter for refusing the security deposit by mail. He emailed it.

The statute says:

"If the landlord retains all or part of a security deposit under this section, the landlord shall give to the tenant the balance of the security deposit, if any, together with a written description and itemized list of all deductions."

92.104 (c) at:

http://law.justia.com/codes/texas/2009/property-code/title-8-landlord-and-tenant/chapter-92-residential-tenancies/

Courts have accepted the validity of emails for years now. It's ludicrous to claim that an email is not a "written" description.

Sevina:

They are calculating the 30 days from the day the walk through was conducted ( 8/4 on their request) and not on 8/31 ( when the lease terminated and the tenants vacated ). So my original question is when does the clock for the 30 days start?

What the heck difference does that make now? It's already going on 42 days or 38 days depending on which way you look at it and you haven't sued yet. 

Sevina:

Why would the landlord enter the premises in the absence of the renter if the keys were not handed over?

Landlord has a right of entry even when you are living there. It's limited but it's certainly not limited after you've already moved out.

Sevina:

No, there were no pictures taken either at move in or during walk through.

Unfortunate for you. Especially if the LL took photos within a few days after you moved out.

Bottom line, if you didn't leave the place a mess, then you have the option of suing for your money back. How that plays out is impossible to predict. 

However, if the LL is trying to scam you and you aren't willing to file suit, I suggest you just ignore him. If he files a lawsuit, you get to defend.

Just to make it clear, they are not demanding payment for any mess.

The house was in imamculate condition when we left .We kept it clean and had professional cleaners do a move out clean.

The landlords lived out of state. They did not give us their address . We paid by direct deposit in their account. 

The property manager refused to handle the walkthrough or take the keys and I did not get instructions from the LL to hand over the keys to her so did not deem it fit to mail or bring them over to her place.Dont know if it is relevant but just stating it.

I am only asking about the 30 day time period because I want to know if I can be used or not. 

I always paid my rent on time and followed every single thing on a timely manner so I also want to uphold them to it.

Sevina:

Just to make it clear, they are not demanding payment for any mess.

OK, mess is the wrong word. Call it whatever you like: mess, damages, repairs, whatever, they are demanding $10,000.

Sevina:

I am only asking about the 30 day time period because I want to know if I can be used or not. 

Of course you can use it. The 30 days were up either 9/31 or 10/4. Today's 10/12 so you have a cause of action for non-compliance with the security deposit law regardless of what date you count from.

On the other hand, if the LL sues you for damages the 30 days has nothing to do with your defense, nor does anything else about the keys and the move out EXCEPT that you left the place immaculate and didn't cause any damages. That's all that counts.

Sevina:

I always paid my rent on time and followed every single thing on a timely manner so I also want to uphold them to it.

Then sue him. The best defense is a good offense (I think that's how it goes).

Hopefully we will sue before they do.

No , they did not send the email today. They sent it on 10/4 as I said in my original post.

That is why I am interestd in knowing about the time frame. 

Sevina:

No , they did not send the email today. They sent it on 10/4 as I said in my original post.

That's not relevant anymore.

Your issue is that they didn't return your money. The issue is not the date that they emailed you the notice.

If you can prove that they kept the money wrongly then the 30 day thing doesn't matter any more, other than the deadline for returning the money is long past.

If the LL used a local agent to manage the place and his agent refused to accept surrender if you tendered same then..I'n not think thats a point in LL's favor as to start date.

34 days is not 30 days. and law seems to say if LL misses 30 its a presumption of bad faith.

I simply do not know if email response counts when the TX law says written ---and when did you open it--often there is view that if sender sends it by alternate method that sender bears all risks of late delivery .

My leases require tenants to clean filters--but I'm not reading your lease--and unless lease says tenant must change filters I'd say  LL has a problem as this might be ordinary wear and tear .

Me, probably wise to contact skilled counsel from tenant side and consider striking first.

Note elsewhere that TX law specifically addresses that LL's response must be posted by US Mail and that date counts---if he failed to post he blew that section?

Also TX allows for triple damages PLUS attorney costs....if LL blew it.

I just want to increase my chances by also using the clause of the delay . That is why I am interested in finding out more about the clause. During our tenancy the LLs were very strict about upholding every line and word of the contract and a stickler for the time frame so I want to follow the law as well and see what gives me the most advantage.
Due to lack of photographs, it might be hard to prove the respsonsibilty for the damages. I want to use everything I can to make my case stronger.
My issue is that they are wiholding the money wrongly. They are also wrong by not returning it or giving an explanation within the 30 day time frame.
Drew, I think our lease did say to clean filters. We cleaned the one set that the landlord showed us . We were not aware of any other filters in the house till the ac broke down. All the mechanics we consulted said that the the efficiency of the AC unit reduces due to dirty filters but it does not cause break down. We were ready to pay for a depreciated cost but they want us to pay for a new ac along with lawyers fees , even though they have not gone to court yet or won any judgement against us. The LLs also created other hassles regarding this but it is not relevant here.

If TX law says LL must use US Mail to post a response then he has blown past 30 day by any measure known?