No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

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Latest post 01-18-2013 10:48 AM by Drew. 43 replies.
  • 12-18-2012 11:28 AM

    No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Morning everyone,

     

    Now I did read the other post from March of 2011 about No AKC papers recieved and it half answered the question that I have.  It gave me a great starting point but I really kinda need to know when does it go from breach of contract to Fraud?  Is my situation more breach of contract or Fraud in your opinion?  I know that I'll get various answers and I really hope to get some variety of responses with back up supporting your opinion.

     

    Here we go.  Aug 2012, I find an Ad on Craigslist stating that the seller is selling AKC registerable puppies, 2 female and 6 male in Oklahoma.

    Later in August I go and buy the last Male puppy from this ad.  Here's the kicker.  The seller tells me that they will send me the registration papers once the arrive from AKC.  The seller tells me that they are on the way to them.  The seller has both parents at the residence (it's not a puppy mill).  Seller shows me the Sire's AKC registration papers but not the Dame's.  The seller informs me that they lost the "dame's paperwork" in a move from Tx to OK.  The seller has requested from the Dame's seller a copy of the registration that they were given and that it was sent to AKC apparently and that the paperwork is on the way.  Once the seller gets the paperwork the seller will distribute this to each animal that was sold.  Now I have been contacted by 1 other buyer and they were told the same story. 

     

    It's been 4 months.  I have countless text messages I saved on my phone between the seller and I as they reassure me that the papers are still coming.  Now I'm not trying to be niave so I contact AKC and ask them has the litter been registered. They could not find the seller in their database.  So I ask the seller for a copy of the Sire's certificate to prove that the animal is already registered.  Seller snaps a pic and sends it via txt.  I call AKC with those numbers, they locate the Sire but have no record a female in the Seller's name or spouses name. 

     

    Seller tells me via text that they had to drive back to the Dam's seller to get an "original certificate"  apparently they had and "alternate certificate" with AKC would not accept.

    Last week I text again and asked "has the litter been regiestered yet?"  No response. 

     

    Total time 4 months from purchase.  No AKC papers to speak of, AKC will not allow me to register the dog without both Dam and Sire numbers and the seller must register the litter first at a cost of $50 a pup apparently.

     

    So is this situation in breach of Contract or Fraud?  I ask cause I do intend to file a small claim in the county I bought the dog in and so does the other person who purchased a dog from this seller.  I just want to make sure I file it correctly.

     

    Thanks for all your thoughts I really do appreciate it.

     

    Heidi

  • 12-18-2012 11:37 AM In reply to

    • Drew
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    If the deal expressly was to include AKC papers then I'd be of view you deserve all your money back and you return the dog and for that matter you might have a point about boarding costs for a dog that does not meet the requirements.....but I doubt seller will see it that way and its probably a daunting task to sue them where they live.

    In a marketing sense a dog with out papers is just a nice dog.and is noty what you bargained for.\

    I have no doubt the papers are more than lost.



  • 12-18-2012 11:53 AM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Trust me, I agree about the papers are more than lost statement.  I really do not want to give the dog back as my daughter has bonded with the dog. Then again, my husband wants to throttle him 30% of the time but that's normal for a puppy. 

     

    Should I expect to have to give the dog back, which I'm certain the seller won't want the dog back at this age.  I mean I've spent a significant amount of money besides the purchase price.  I've probably forked out at least $2k on vet bills, room and board items, food you name it.

     

    The deal was a dog with papers was what we were expecting, we wanted to be able to show and breed the dog.  Can't do that without papers though.  The ad said AKC registerable so they should have paperwork for that but we've never gotten it obvioulsy.

     

    Sueing them will be time consuming but it seems my only option at this point.  Do we sue for Breach of contract or Fruad or both though?  That's the other question.  i'd had to sue for Fraud and lose cause we should've sued for breach of contract or vice versa.

     

    Heidi

  • 12-18-2012 12:25 PM In reply to

    • Drew
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    I'd sue for breech of contract --Contract was for a dog with papers --they gave you a nice lovable mutt. But its your duty to prove the deal included AKC registration so becareful.

    Me, I'd sue for full costs of dog, which I'll return when paid plus court costs plus full costs of maintaining nice lovable mutt until the return is implemented  but you need to bill for same and I doubt you get such an award --but one tries --and I don't want to be there when daughter is told to surrender mutt for $$. 

    That said, unless you hold sellers feet to fire you won't get anything.



  • 12-18-2012 12:35 PM In reply to

    • DPH
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Here's my advice, for what it's worth.

    Do the math and decide if the cost to sue in the seller's location (you don't get to sue for your travel, time, expenses) is greater than the emotional cost of possibly having to return what is now a lovable member of your household.  It is possible that even if you win, you still loose.

    How much did you spend on this critter?  Do you have any info on the Dam?  Have you quizzed AKC about the Dam?  Does AKC have any procedures in place to assist if both the Dam and Sire are registered, but the seller isn't competent? 

    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."  -  Mark Twain

     

  • 12-18-2012 12:42 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Luckily I've been to small claims before, albiet in another state for a case against a landlord, so I'm not totally ignorant on how to get my funds if I win. I plan on filing a Lien and wage garnisment on the family if I win to get my funds back.  It'll take some digging and effort on my part to find out where the husband works but I know he's an oil field worker so they are not hurting for funds.  I know I have to sue both of them as she sold the dog but the sire is registered to the husband and she does not work.

    But this really helps, cause I know if I don't sue for the right term that it'll get rejected and I'll be filing all over again.  Not something I want to go through twice.

    I can prove with the text messages I have and I can dig up the old advertisement from criagslist (my husband's an IT guy so he'll find it, since he told me he can) and I have those as proof of what was too be sold and all actions taken since then between the seller and I.  On top of that I've been in contact with one of the other purchasers who was told the same thing and he wants to sue as he feels he was ripped off he was buying a breeding female for his already registred male, now all he has is a mutt and can't breed her.  So he's a witness for me and vice versa.

    I'm thinking since small claims generally awards monetarily and not property this is the way to go but I'll offer return of dog as an option along with refund of all monies spent.  If they do not want the dog back then that's just a bonus mutt for me.  In the end they'll lose if they do not provide the AKC registration as promised. 

    Telling the kid, well she'll understand.  I think if we need to return the mutt she won't be too sad.  We really wanted a female to begin with and ended up with a male so we'll hold out for a female.  This time I'd find a reputable breeder and visit them before purchasing to make sure they are legit, double check by calling AKC to see if the litter was registered, then go from there.  If I had known I could call AKC and double check the registration of a litter in hind site I would've done that before buying.  They record all transactions and the stages that they are in so someone telling you that the litter is registered you can call and check and AKC can tell you if they recieved anything from that breeder. If they haven't don't bother with them.

    At least I have a better idea of what to file for in small claims now.  Thanks for the help, it's really appreciated.

     

    Heiid

     

     

  • 12-18-2012 12:54 PM In reply to

    • Drew
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Small claims courts generally address money issues not specific performance  as I see it you sue for breech of contract and want all your money back as vendor has failed to perform.  and in the meantime I'd paper the  boarding /kennel /vet costs and  demand same and sue for same  ( I doubt you win but interesting to add it ) In effect you got duped to provide free room and board for a mutt -now you want those costs as well recovered.

    A willing credible witness on the stand  as to other events of cheating buyers in similar fact pattern may help a lot to take it out of the whoops I missed class. These vendors are in the business of ripping people off ...



  • 12-18-2012 12:56 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Great advice.  I've been in touch with AKC and have written down who I talked too, times and discussion highlights. 

    Here's how it works according to two different people I talked to at AKC two different times, I got the story twice.  You have a Dam and Sire both registered animals then you contact AKC.  You can do this via web, phone or snail mail.  You send in the form or email, or fax it stating you've had a litter, the dam's info, the sire's info, how many in the litter, males, females etc.  You pay $50 for registation and $10 a pup.  They send you papers to give to new owners adn that let's them file for their official AKC registration. AT time of purchase or even after purchase you can get these papers, or the new owners can call AKC with either you the seller's info, along with the sire or dam's name and register over the phone and pay about $100 for the registration and then you have a legit showable, breedable dog depending on the registation type.  That's direct from AKC 2 weeks ago.

    Now one registered animal, and one not registered, you have a MUTT.  No way in He** will they let you register the dog even though it looks like a purebred unregistered animal, it's just not going to happen.

    The math $350 for the dog.  $290 for outside yard kennel, $300 for inside kennel, $90 vet bill, $100 food bill monthly, $100 toys, $50 dog dishes.  So for about $1600 you have a 4 month old mutt, or I have that is. 

    I have the Sire info but no Dam info.  I've asked AKC to look up the dam's info via the seller, seller's husband, Sire's info and see if they can find another registered dog to either person that way and they searched Tx, OK, Ar, Lousiana and NM, all the southern states and found no other animal registered to either person other than the Sire.  I wrote down who I talked too, when and the search results via telephone.

    If both the dam and sire are registred the AKC can help if the seller isn't competent, they told me if I provide both numbers that I still can not register my puppy until the seller registers the litter end of the line.  So without the seller registering the litter even if both dogs have AKC registration you are not getting a registered dog.  That's the extent of the help. 

    Great working with the AKC.  Oh and they will not help if you have to sue, they stay out of it.  Luckily I have picture proof of the sire's registration.

    Heidi

     

     

  • 12-18-2012 12:59 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Here's my opinion for the 2 cents that it's worth.

    This is YOUR mistake for not getting the paperwork WITH the dog. Period.

    You're only assuming that your daughter will be OK with giving up the dog. Have you laid this out for her and asked her how she would feel if she had to give up the dog today, not to mention how much more bonding is going to occur in the ensuing months while this winds it's way through the court?

    You might try a demand letter with a completed (but not filed) small claims complaint for your money back or the papers. Give a deadline date. If you don't get the money back or the papers by the deadline then decide if you want to go to court or not.

     

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  • 12-18-2012 1:16 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    hboutwell:
    The math $350 for the dog.  $290 for outside yard kennel, $300 for inside kennel, $90 vet bill, $100 food bill monthly, $100 toys, $50 dog dishes.  So for about $1600 you have a 4 month old mutt, or I have that is. 

    Here is my take:  all but the price of the puppy you would have spent anyway and the court is not likely to award you that as they were expenses that would be incurred in the purchase of any dog regardless of papers.  Your beef is that you paid the amount you did based on the theory the dog was "registered" or eligible.  However, unless you intend to breed or show the dog then registry is completely irrelevant (other than the price) it isn't like people sit around comparing registration certificates.

    If it were me, I would contact the seller and explain that the price paid was based on AKC registration and after speaking with AKC they have no record of the dam and that if they don't produce the appropriate registries for the puppy within 14 business days I will file suit for breach of contract and damages.  I would point out to the breeder that had I wanted an unregistered dog I would have rescued one from the pound.  Then I would follow through. 

    In the future if you want a pure bred humptyhound go to your local shelter and let them know what you are looking for.  Purebreds get dumped in shelters ALL the time and you rescue a dog that might otherwise lose it's life.

    "That's just my opinion, then again I might be wrong."  Dennis Miller

     

  • 12-18-2012 1:22 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    hboutwell:
    the seller is selling AKC registerable puppies, 2 female and 6 male in Oklahoma.

    There is a difference between selling a registerable puppy vs. one that is registered.  You did not say that you had a written contract with this person guaranteeing that they would get you registration papers or that they would provide them within a specific period of time. The burden is on you to prove the contract and the terms of the contract.  The craig's listing doesn't really help you.  Since you say they are not a "puppy mill," it's entirely possible this is the first time they've had to deal with registering a litter.  IF you sue, you will have to return the dog.  If they walk into court with proof the pup is registerable as advertised, you lose.  Lastly, contrary to other poster's assertions, you are not entitled to recover the cost of caring for that dog during the time you had it. 

  • 12-18-2012 1:27 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Do you actually have a contract with the breeder? I am afraid a Craigslist listing is not a binding contract for you ie, the ad doesn't mean you were guaranteed AKC registry even if that was listed in the ad. Breeders often will sell with and without papers, so just because the ad listed it, does not mean that was YOUR agreement.  

    A reputable breeder would have a contract.  Did you sign a contract with the breeder?  and how have you spent 2k in four months on a puppy??  Curious, but you are not entitled to compensation for that.

     

  • 12-18-2012 1:38 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    My intention right now is a demand letter stating that I purchased the dog with the intention of

    #1 showing the dog (can't do this without AKC registration). 

    #2 to breed the dog.

    Our intention was to buy a female AKC puppy for my daugther to show at 4-H then breed her twice, then have her spayed. That was the whole thought process behind it.  The seller sold the female out from under us before we got to her house 2 hours away.  Gave us an excuse about it via txt message. 

    But we went anyways and we liked the last male's tempermant, very calm. I saw the registration paperwork for the sire and it had a TX address on it so the moving story sounded legit.  What I did not know is that you could call AKC to confirm ownership of any animal  or other animals under anyone's name.  Found this out in November.  Had I known this in September I would've done so on the spot.  So my fault for not checking the facts with AKC, lesson learned.

    But the dog was adverstised as AKC registerable and I have text messages (4 of them) confirming the supposed effort by the seller to get the litter registered with AKC over the last 3 months.

    So the letter will state the intentions and request refund of the cost of the dog minus a $25 adoption fee (humane society would charge this for any mutt).  If I wanted a mutt I would've gone down to the local shelter and got one, that is NOT what I wanted.  I will explain that I have been in contact with AKC, as I have alreadly told the seller via txt message already back in October and tell the seller what I was told.  I will also state that if no refund is sent then I have no other choice but to take them to court for not just the cost of the Mutt but the cost to house the mutt and give them an option to take the mutt back in exchange for room/board/expenses and dog cost. Either way they either produce the AKC registration on the Dam and get the litter registered in the next 14 days or they owe me at the least $325 min, or $1600 and take the dog back.

    Knowing that this was not an intended breeding, the mom was only 9 months old when she got pregnant, I'm certain they do not want the dog back.  I won't be the only one doing this either, at least 1 other purchaser is doing the same thing.  I'm just hoping for a refund at this point but I am willing to give the dog back in exchange for a full refund of all costs of housing the mutt if it comes to that.

    Now as for shelter dogs and rescue dogs, been there, done that, had some really bad experiences from that and we as a family will never do that again. One of our rescue dogs we had bit a neighbor girl for no reason.  I watched it happen, he just went over and bit her ankle unprovoked.  That dog went straight to the pound.  Another one ate through a 4" wood post and became your classic escape artist, not to mention the psychological issues the dog had, we couldn't keep him in the backyard just go out shopping for food without him escaping.  It was riduculous.  So no, I'm not offering to save a mutt nor do we want to again.  We prefer to raise our own dog from a puppy.

    The whole intention all along was to get a dog that was registred for my daughter to show and potentially breed in the future.  We wanted to enroll my daughter in 4-H and have a showable, breedable dog.  But so far that has not happened.  Now I know she can show a mutt in 4-H but also that'll get her laughed off the stage, been there and done that too when I was younger.  So I'm not about to put her in that position.

     

  • 12-18-2012 1:38 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    splum1:
    A reputable breeder would have a contract.

    Reputable breeders also don't use Craig's List to sell their animals but "back yard" breeders certainly do.  The goal is to make a profit on the litter.  Reputable breeders have no trouble with buyers as the puppies that are show/breed quality return to the breeder/sire/dam owner for future stock and showing.  Pet quality pure breds are often 1-2 per litter and sold to very carefully chosen families that are referred through cleared and recognized sources as good homes.  They are sold without papers to discourage back yard breeding and make the puppy ineligible for showing.  They are just as expensive because the reputable breeder guarantees health, produces quality animals, and does not breed indiscriminantly. 

    Another thought for anyone who is bent on getting a pure bred dog:  contact your local vetrinarian and ask if they have a client that breeds quality humptyhounds or what ever breed you want and then ask for a referral to the breeder.  Vets don't recommend back yard breeders to get puppies either. 

    "That's just my opinion, then again I might be wrong."  Dennis Miller

     

  • 12-18-2012 1:40 PM In reply to

    • Drew
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    I agree you have the burden to prove that the contract included AKC registration as a material part of deal.  The  listing and other witness may be big help but you still have burden to connect all the dots

    I see your point and think you can connect all the dots if you take care.

    If I send you a mutt (wrong merchandise) then as a practical humane matter I have saddled you with an involuntary  set of bailment costs to keep the dog healthy and fed etc and I knew darn well I didn't have that  other piece of paper --its not a cost you would have voluntarily born had you not been deliberately misled --you expended the care and cost in detrimental reliance to view that I would perform as advertised/promised/contracted. There was NO meeting of the minds as to a nice mutt!  Me, I'd seek all my costs of caring for the nice mutt. I think you hold the high moral road on that one--judge might agree.

    And it seems to me the seller has not taken any credible steps to mitigate damages --such as offer to lower the price to that of costs of a mutt or offer to make a prompt replacement with a dog meeting ALL the criteria as originally  was part of contract.  Law probably imposes a burden on parties to try --and vendor sure seems to have missed that boat. .



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