No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

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Latest post 01-18-2013 10:48 AM by Drew. 43 replies.
  • 12-18-2012 1:41 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Not to be rude, but none of what you intended matters. Doesn't matter you wanted a female, doesn't matter you wanted to breed...you bought a male.  You are not going to get the money you spent for the other items and you won't get money for boarding.

    Do you or do you not have a contract with the breeder specifically saying you were to get AKC registration? YOu failed to answer that.

  • 12-18-2012 1:43 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    ClydesMom:
    Reputable breeders also don't use Craig's List to sell their animals but "back yard" breeders certainly do.  The goal is to make a profit on the litter.

    Agree 100% and reputable breeders don't sell puppies on Craigslist that they have because they couldn't bother to spay/neuter and they ended up with a pregnant puppy.

     

  • 12-18-2012 1:47 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    I wish I had a contract. What I have is a piece of paper stating she sold me a puppy, her name and address and phone and email.  She wasn't about to do that when I bought the dog but I insisted on that minimally.  I've also been in constant bi weekly contact with her about AKC registration of the litter.  So I know she is supposedly trying, but 4 months is getting a bit long. 

    Is she a "breeder".. I classify a breeder as someone with 2 or more AKC registered dogs, registered as breeders with AKC and a business license stating such.  She is not a "breeder".  Just an average person who happens to own 2 dogs, one registered and as it presently seems one unregistered (although at the time I was lead to believe they were both registered).  They got pregnant and well that's that.

    She has led everyone she sold the puppies too believe that she will provide the AKC registration papers.  That's what all of her texts state and it has not happened yet.

    It's easy to spend almost $2k on a puppy in 4 months. Cost of dog, $400 in food ($100 a month), Kennel costs both indoor and outdoor, toys to keep the puppy from destroying our stuff, leashes, collars (they grow like weeds I've gone through 3 collars so far), vet costs for shots and microchipping.  Now if I already had a dog most of that wouldn't have happened but it's the first dog we've had in 10 years so yes startup costs are not cheap people.  I've got all the receipts too show how much it costs.  It was shocking when I added it up.

  • 12-18-2012 1:47 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    hboutwell:

    My intention right now is a demand letter stating that I purchased the dog with the intention of

    #1 showing the dog (can't do this without AKC registration). 

    #2 to breed the dog.

    Your intentions are irrelevant.  You purchased a dog that you were told was "registerable" not registered.  You have not indicated that you had a written contract guaranteeing that they would provide that registration and you have no evidence that they are not trying to get it for you anyway.  You did not have a written contract that said if they were unable to provide the registration, you would get a full refund or that you would be entitled to any other incidental damages.   You want to void the sale, you give the dog back and you get your money back.  That's it. 

  • 12-18-2012 1:53 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    I am sorry, but it is not likely you win this.

    You don't have a contract outlining you were to get AKC registered eligible puppy.   Just because you have subsequent conversations in which you want that, you legally are not entitled to it. 

    Doesn't matter if she said she would get that for you. You still have no contract.  $350 is not a ridiculous fee for a non papered dog.   I would never use Craigslist to buy an animal, especially one in which they told me they had because they failed to neuter/spay the parents. THat is NOT reputable and I would never ever ever breed that dog.

    And I am sorry, but if you intended to breed, what you have spent is nothing compared to what you would spend to have all of the testing done to ensure the dog is healthy and produces healthy offspring, or were you not planning on doing that?

     .

  • 12-18-2012 1:55 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    hboutwell:
    I classify a breeder as someone with 2 or more AKC registered dogs, registered as breeders with AKC and a business license stating such. 

    You might wanted to have verified that before you actually bought the puppy.

  • 12-18-2012 1:57 PM In reply to

    • Drew
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Boloney --If she advertised the dog as with AKC registraton or whatever the precise words are either the dog fits those requirements or the mutt does not. If OP can establish that the deal was for an AKC registered or registerable dog its end game for the seller.  In general if the seller created a contract  ambiguity as to registered or registerable whatever that means the other side is entitled to the benefit of the doubt

    Now I may not be a car dealer but if I advertise a 1956 Ford T Bird  I'd best not send you a 1965 Ford pickup and claim they are pretty close to the same thing.  It may be a perfectly nice  Ford pickup and far more useful than a T Bird  but thats not what the deal was about.



  • 12-18-2012 2:03 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Ok I have evidence in text messages to me from the seller.  Text messages stating they are trying to get everyone the registration paperwork, trying to register the litter with AKC.  So yes those are admissable.  We we all verbally told the puppies were registered with AKC and that they were waiting for the paper work to arrive.  But I have text messages, just as good as email from them stating everything since then, so yes I have proof.  I'm not blowing smoke as they say.

     

    In order for a dog to be registereable or registered both parenst must be AKC.  That is how it works, I knew that much before buying the dog.  To advertise the animals as such means that both parents are AKC.  To sell the animal as such means that too.  If either parent is found to not be registered, it's a one time fee and your in the books for life, then it's a fraud that is being sold.  I bought the dog based on the advertisement stating such, the verbal confirmation, and seeing 1 parent's registration certificate. 

    There was no contract provided as they are not breeders.  But without the contract I still have all the texts and the original advertisement so that should stand up in court.

    Voiding the contract seems acceptable at this time if they go for it. I just like to have options so I know when I'm overstepping and don't do that.

    Heidi

  • 12-18-2012 2:12 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    I have to agree with Drew here, you advertise it and sell me something different then it's fraud or breach of contract one of the two.  It could potentially be both. 

    Thus I asked the question originally, is this considered a Fraud or breach of contract for small claims purposes. Fully knowing I don't have a contract just a reciept of sale, an advertisement for the animal and text messages showing intent but no final resolution to AKC issues.  Besides the fact I can get AKC to send me proof that only one of the animals was registered and that's all they have in their database regarding the two owners.

    So which is it?

     

     

  • 12-18-2012 2:22 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Sorry, I disagree with Drew. I have AKC registered dogs and I would never buy one without seeing BOTH parents registration before I bought a puppy that I wanted the AKC registration for.  I would also have a contract specifically stating I was buying an AKC registered puppy and if there is no AKC registration, what the recourse is. I would not leave without having the AKC registration form in hand.  You saw one AKC registration and you have emails but you have no contract specifically stating you purchased an AKC puppy.

    Without a contract, it's neither. Sorry.

     

  • 12-18-2012 2:23 PM In reply to

    • Drew
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Yes you do have a contract --and all those advs and emails go to the substance of what  was the intended essence of the deal. It seems crystal clear that the essence of the deal included a dog that was AKC registered/registerable .

    Now whether you wanted a male or female for breeding purposes does not seem to me to be part of the deal.

    And presumably this is not a debate about the animal being sterile or not as without AKC there is little market for offspring anyway . So a debate about your lost profit options  is off topic?



  • 12-18-2012 3:01 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    So I have to remember to keep my emotions out of this as this was a Sale of Chattle (gotta love that term).  Sale was based on an advertisement stating Chattel could be registered or was registred (presently don't remember the exact words but that's the gist). 

    Now in order to be registered, both Chattel's Dam and Sire must be registered AND the litter must be registered.  To be registerable, the Dam and Sire are registered but the litter has yet to be but can be registered that's about the only difference wtih AKC, nothing else matters.

    I was told verbally and in writing (text mesage) that the litter was registered, then it was not, then it was several times from September to the present.  So the effort and intent to register is there, but the registration has yet to occur.

    The Origianal verbal promise (let's remember verbal does not stand up in court) was "the papers are on their way, I should have them in 2 weeks then I'll mail everyone their paperwork, so 3 weeks from now you should have it."

    What does stand up in court, original advertisement of chattel, text messages and a witness who was told the same thing as I.

    So yes, I have a case.  Been to small claims before and I know I have a case. The last judge I saw told me very firmly and directly if it's in writing it stands up in court, if it's verbal it means nothing.  Had an issue with a landlord verbally evicting me 12 years ago over a pet we acquired after we already had been given verbal approval to have a pet and had an existing one in the residence.  Just cause he stands on the porch and yells at you and tells you to leave does not mean you have too, he must serve a notice of eviction.  You don't have the right to just leave, otherwise he's entitled to your last month's rent, thus I owed a month's rent.  The things I wish I knew then and now I know.

    Just because I do not have a signed contract does NOT mean it does not stand up in court.  The advertisement states what is to be sold, the text messages back it up.  Even without a contract for the chattel, I have a receipt stating I bought the chattel and for how much and from whom.  That sale is based on the advertisement not on some contract written up by a standard person, not a breeder. 

    I know what a breeder is, my mom bred AKC Beagles for 15 years and showed them, till I was 14.  She had contracts, 12 dogs and tons of puppies.  I still have several of her award winning trophies.  We had dog runs, a 10 acre spred and I was responsible for feeding the dogs in the afternoon. So yes I know what is meant by a contract and what a breeder really is.  This is not that type of scenario at all. 

    This is *** and Jane had 2 dogs, 1-2 yr. old AKC male, 1-18 month old female.  Female came in heat at 6mon, the again at 9mon. They didn't expect the second heat soo soon, so they didn't catch the two before breeding occurred.  It was not their intention to have puppies but it happened to *** and Jane.  So *** and Jane advertised the dogs for sale as AKC puppies.  Now we have this mess.

    Here's the real kicker for those who have not gone to small claims before, just because you have a contract doesn't mean you'll win or lose, it may not hold up in court no matter that you think it might.  What does hold up is advertised item, sale of item, and attempt to follow through along with failure to produce what was advertised in a timely manor even with follow through. That stands up in court.  It shows the intent, the purchase and failure to provide what was purchased.

    The problem I am having is how do I file this small claim as a Breach of contract (even though I do not have one) or as a Fraud.

     

     

     

     

  • 12-18-2012 3:12 PM In reply to

    • Drew
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    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    It s a breech of contract --its delivery of wrong stuff its whatever you want to call it --but you need to prove it.



  • 12-18-2012 3:30 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    You do realize AKC registration does not mean the dog is sold with those rights. Again, a reputable breeder, would have this listed in the contract.  Just because the dog is AKC eligible, does NOT mean you have bought the rights to register that dog for breeding purposes. 

    There are purchases with full and limited registrations and typically, the contract you have would very clearly specify this. You would pay significantly more for full breeding rights. Most breeders do NOT sell breeding rights.

    The puppy being AKC eligible in no way infers you bought that right to register the puppy for breeding purposes.

    Good luck.

  • 12-18-2012 3:40 PM In reply to

    Re: No AKC Papers recieved is this Fraud or Breach of Contract.

    Yep I realize that.  It's the fact that it was sold to me with the certainty I could register the dog, seller said so and it was clearly stated as such in the ad.  I really don't care if it's limited reg or breeders reg.  Just get me the AKC paperwork that's legit.  That's what I really want, that's all I've wanted this whole time. I'm sick of texting and getting the run around.

    Something tells me she bought her Dam without papers and didn't bother to tell anyone.  Or the breeder she bought from did not sell the dog with breeding potential and is refusing to give her an "original copy" of the certificate

    I can't even show the dog without it.  So at that point it's a Mutt and mutts cost $25 not $350.  If I wanted a mutt I woul'dve gone to the local shelter.

    Don't sell me something and then say oops, guess not.  That's like selling me a Steak and switching it with Vege meat and then try to tell me its the same thing.  Its not. 

    We almost went to a breeder which was 5 hours away, that was the closest one to us at the time that had a litter.  These guys were closer the only reason I went there was distance. 

    Of course without a contract then what ever she gives me from AKC I must live with and I"m fine with that, just get me something that proves he's worth $350 at this point.

     

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